Serving people where they are
Episode 6: Podcast with Hilary Brown and Simon Low.
Serving people where they are: the broad range of needs, desires, traumas and beautiy we encounter as teachers of yoga. Plus bringing the art & mystery of yoga back into the classroom.
In the six episode of Conversations Beyond the Mat, Hilary Brown talks with Simon Low who is the Principal of The Yoga Academy, one of the UK’s leading yoga teacher training schools. With over 30 years of yoga experience, Simon’s foundational teachings are informed by Sri T Krishnamacharya and his primary students, TKV Desikachar and BKS Iyengar. Simon’s teachings reflects his continued enquiry, training and on-going studies in many forms of Hatha and Classical yoga, traditional Chinese and eastern medicine, Chi Kung, ancient and contemporary healing methodologies, centred-movement, psychology, physical therapy and nutrition. He also studied in A.H. Almaas’ Ridhwan School, and have also studied The Course in Miracles.
Podcast maker Hilary Brown is the founder & creative director of Yoga Moves Training Programs in The Netherlands.
Full transcript:
Hilary
Okay, so good afternoon, and welcome to this episode of the podcast conversations off the mat with Hilary Brown, I have a very, very special guest today, I have Simon Low here to talk with me about the yoga as it stands today, 2022 and share his experiences. I'll just give a real brief interview, introduction to you, Simon. And then I'll let you tell us a little bit about you, Simon came to the Netherlands some years ago, I forget when you were here last, it's been quite a few?
Simon
It's been a few years.
Hilary
We hosted you a couple, two or three, I forget, times, and you used to do some stuff in Amsterdam. And I've seen you in a couple of other locations and met you in different settings. And I just, it's so funny because I was I've always been so impressed with your work and the way you teach. You know, I really feel like you're one of those teacher of the teacher kind of people, someone that digests and integrates and can educate. Those things are unique, it's not like every good teacher, as an educator as well, you know, and also, on a personal level, I'm just going to say this, Simon, the controversial thing, I'm going to say because you teach Yin yoga, you do teacher training in Yin yoga, I have a personal problem with Yin yoga in my own body, it's been a very difficult relationship I have with Yin yoga very often, because of my osteo, arthritis and things like that, and over mobility. You're the only teacher I trust in Yin yoga, so far, for the physical part, the way you teach it. And maybe we'll get into why that is later and find out. But I'd like to let you give us a little sense of your history, of what you'd like to share, maybe you'd like to introduce yourself briefly,
Simon
Hi Hilary, hello, everyone. I just got to close the windows, because at this moment, my gardener decided to mow the lawn. I'll be with you in a few moments. I'll also be with you in a few months, as Hilary will probably share with you.
Hilary
We're planning you in, we're working on getting that event.
Simon
September, yeah, thank you for your generous words at the beginning. The most important thing for me as a teacher is that students who I'm sharing yoga with do feel safe, not just emotionally safe, but physically safe in, in their practices. So I'm glad that that's what's worked with you. And I think it very much underpins how I teach yoga in general. And when I say in general, I mean all facets of this diamond, that is yoga with teachings. I think emotional and physical safety are critical elements to be respected in the class and I have just felt over my experience. And of course, on occasion, taught in a manner myself in years by where perhaps we can share quite possibly through just great enthusiasm and reflection of where we personally as a teacher might be on our personal practice, can often share yoga in a group format a little bit more, perhaps strongly or forthrightly than might be appropriate for a large percentage of individuals in a group environment. And I think as a teacher, we all know that to work one on one with an individual gives us a very clear gateway into the field of support, and sharing with that individual than in a group environment. I think all teachers need to be increasingly careful with sharing of Asanas that we respect the human form which is probably under more stress, tension, even trauma than perhaps ever before in history, however, than in the midst of World Wars, this is...
Hilary
Wow that's a big statement, that's amazing.
Simon
I really, I really feel that. I mean, there's much been shared with regard to the pandemic, the apparent pandemic and its impact on people. And I think it's underestimated how much underlying, insidious, consistent traumatic influence has been received, has been absorbed by so many people.
Hilary
Do you think that's like... I'm curious just to understand that a little bit like the trauma of just the unknown, I know some people in some parts of the world are absolutely, you know, devastated by the economics, probably, of the pandemic, as much as the physical aspect. Many people lost other people. But is this underlining feeling of not, so lack of confidence we have in the systems or institutions or in each other? Where do you think that light comes from?
Simon
Is an underlying sense, I mean, the word fear is a strong word in the English language, but to find a suitable replacement, within the English language, is not easy. Because many, many, many people who I've spoken to over the last, over the last year have expressed a very clear sense of fear of the unknown. Fear of what's going to happen from a view of the economic element. The obvious, as we know, as one of the ..... in yoga teaching is the fear of change. Many people have had change enforced upon them. And many people have chosen the path of changing their life or direction, whatever the choice might be, or the influence might be, there's always some sense of anxiety, trepidation in there, as confident as we might be in certain circumstances. And that's good for us. Good for us to be able to feel fear. And as the old saying, goes, do it anyway. But it's the, well the key to that is to be able to process it. And this is where I feel that many people are insufficiently able to to process their fear, grief, and other experiences that many, many people are experiencing at this time.
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Hilary
And for you, how has that changed the way you're working, or the way you approach... That's, I mean, that's where we began, like how to approach, where most of us are working is in a group situation. This is kind of the dynamic of the modern life, I'm sure many people do privates, but the majority, it's a group situation, right? So that's where you began, how do we be cautious, cautiously inspired, you know, and at the same time, inspire people on a on a journey of reaching their capacity.
Simon
Of course, a lot depends on what an individual's intention is, and within their relationship with yoga. And of course, and naturally, and that's absolutely fine. There are many individuals whose yoga is perhaps a substitute for the gym or exercise, it's primarily a physical experience. Every individual who practices it, even with that only as their primary field of consciousness, will benefit on, on all of the other layers, but just not so much consciously so. Until of course those influences from those layers percolates up until there is an unavoidable awakening. Or at least noticing.
Hilary
Let me interrupt can you just like in a parenthesis, can you explain what you mean by the layers? Can you give us a little insight into what that looks like for you?
Simon
Well, if I speak from my own personal experience, when I first encountered yoga is from a debilitating lower back problem...
Hilary
I'm asking by the way, because the source is so many of our "AHAS" has come from this, you know, adversity, you know?
Simon
And so, you know, my first reason for attending a class was to help myself move and be out of pain. But it took a short space of time before I realised that yoga had so much more to offer than simply physical movements that which were going to cure, or at least make manageable, my physical ailments. And at that point, when I think 99% of individuals have a noticing of this, or a realisation, that yoga, the yoga is so much more most likely from the teachings shared by their teacher in a group format. And any readings that might be recommended that... You have to excuse me, Hillary, I'm being interrupted with somebody at my door now.
Hilary
Life goes on, the benefit of being at home when we do these events, these podcasts, but there's also a downside is distractions continues.
Simon
I'm back, that was just my housekeeping. A day in the life of a yoga teacher in between classes. Where were we sorry, excuse me.
Hilary
You're talking about this, the layers and things we just discover, as you know, for whatever reason, you come to the yoga and you see there's something else that starts to wake up
Simon
Well that point, that realisation that there really is a choice. Sometimes it's a choice that is forced upon us by the circumstances of our life, others is a choice that we make to inquire more deeply. And as it happened, that just resonated with whether a parallel journey of mine, I'd already immersed myself into psychotherapy and psychotherapy studies and spirituality and I was already studying The Course of Miracles. So I found that the practice of yoga just fit, fitted and supported and actually gave me in many ways, my boots. I didn't feel grounded in all of the deep psychological work I had been doing. And I found that Yoga very much was a grounding influence. And from that point of view, I think, that has shaped how I like to share yoga, which is to offer it as like a foundation or support system for each individual at every stage of their life. And in every facet and aspect of their life, that takes time. And so in a group format, you're drip feeding yoga's wisdom as time goes along, while supporting the very gradual, safe and, and progressive development of the yoga asana practice. The yoga asana practice, needs to have a quality about it, that never places the individual under stress, and to help to retrigger some of the emotional and psychic and psychological challenges that an individual might be experiencing outside of the class. Now, this is not to say it is not to say that we don't actually keep those relevant criteria present in our consciousness when it comes to an .... of the Yin practice that I find, coming back to answer your question, addresses where humankind is right now. And with this absorption and retention of mild, insidious, consistent trauma over the last couple of years and whatever has been present for individuals prior to that can be met in the Yin practice or actually in any practice as such. With a directional influence from the teachings of Thomas Hanna, for example, in his somatic teachings and what he terms "somatics" and the wisdom in Thomas Hanna's research and teachings is so rich
Hilary
I'm so excited you're bringing him up, I'm so excited because I I've become familiar with him, his work and got excited as well and not everybody knows the reference, knows his original work.
Simon
I think Thomas Hanna's work is absolutely, along with Feldenkrais and others in that era. Particularly Hanna and.... took it a step further. And I think the relevance of his work is so vital right now and I I'm sharing it regularly and interwoven within the fabric of all, nearly all classes. And the results have been just fantastic in terms of, and I can only reference that from the feedback I get from other students that I'm sharing this with, but also, I would say going back to something we were talking about before we switch the mic on in terms of personal practice that Thomas Hanna's teachings have influenced my personal practice so profoundly and I find that I feel much happier in my own body now at 65 then I have done for as long as I can remember, maybe into my 30s.
Hilary
And I don't, for myself, personally, I sometimes I refer to it as like the the baby yolk, because it's small, it's that deep, it's this little, it's just micro movements at times, you know, and so nourishing, and that's, I think that's where when I had a hip replacement, I don't think you were around for that I had an entire time where I hadn't seen you. And before that I didn't know I had a hip issue, I was getting back problems, and like, for me, I went to yin classes, and I could do all the poses, but I would come out and couldn't walk. Like I was limping worse than before, you know, it took 24 hours, 48 hours, it was just like, not great. Bone on bone, hanging out there on these joints and I would ask teachers, and they're all like... And what I want to say is, what I don't understand, after how many years of Yin yoga been in the environment, you know? And was it 15 years now or something like that? And in all these trainings, where's that teaching for Yin teachers about different bodies, and really, how to manage people like me or whoever that is saying, hey, my joints have issues, you know?
Simon
Personally, I believe that our default position should be from a place of softness and ease. Now, having said that, there was without question, there is space. And there is value in... the term has been used quite commonly in the ..., like stressing tissues, and there is a time and a place for that up to a intelligent and appropriate level. But there's only I think there's just one facet of this separate, multifaceted jewelled or diamond that is Yin yoga, and actually, it just happens to have that label. In my consciousness, as opposed to it being a specific line of teachings, it's just really reflects as more as it does in Chinese medicine, or just a more gentle, more inner, more deeply internal experience. And of course, all of our physical tissues are internal. They are an extension of our consciousness, I believe, I don't believe they are separate to our consciousness. And it's just a physical material manifestation of our conscious being that is ourselves, how we address these tissues in our practices. There are so many different different ways that are equally relevant to the necessity in some individuals and perhaps, for others, just to maintain flexibility is to perhaps look towards lengthen and make more elastic tissues but at the same time, this must be balanced with practices that help to sustain the strength and stability of the tissues.
Hilary
And mobility is what you know, is for me, the more important part of these days, right mobility is not just flexibility, I don't really...
Simon
Of course, there'll be many individuals coming into a yoga class already incredibly flexible. And the best route for those individuals is not to work into their flexibility, but just to concentrate more on strength and stability, to support this, this gift of flexibility that they have been blessed with. But actually, for many, it's not such a blessing that if you were to approach your asana practice with intelligence and integrity, actually a very flexible person is going to have to work harder to avoid dropping into flexibility and to cultivate stability, and strength, where it is more sensitively positioned, and .... but people who are less flexible, who are often the people who say, oh, I'm too stiff to do yoga, that's actually, yoga is easier for them because the reference, however shallow or deep, that reference point may be there's a soft edge that unless we have no mind body connection, we can, we can have a profound sense of and to...
Hilary
I'm just sitting here sort of reflecting on my own experience of, you know, like what I gave you that I go into this thing. And so I kind of pulled back, like, from Yin yoga, because for me very often in those classes, the teachers training has not, does not, I don't feel like I have the space to take that space, that's really crazy. Because I'm an experienced person, I mean I can do it in my own living room, where I can go less and do just what is needed. But in the group room, you know, where this shape is, given, this is the shape, and this is the modification. And my modification needs to be way wider way different. I just realised that you know, that. It's, it's so interesting, when you realise, you know, we're trying to teach people how to listen to their boundaries, how to how to challenge the boundaries, and respect their boundaries, both directions. And even in myself, in this particular one, I'm aware that it's been really a hard one for me, because in those rooms, I haven't felt like, I don't know, if I can listen to my own boundaries, when I'm being instructed to do something different, you know what I mean.
Simon
But it raises the point of what is the role of the teacher in the classroom to some degree and it's less about, you know, do this, do that follow me, use me as an example. It's more about creating a space. That is, as I said, as a safe and accessible space for people to dive into the immediate experience of exploring this idea because at the end of the day, yoga asana is an idea. It has a form that you need to demonstrate just as you take a photograph and moving image if you're demonstrating a Vinyasa all the way to move in or move out to an Asana. But at the end of the day, as this as you quite rightly say, your body responds differently. And the teacher's job is to, really, I think, monitor, obviously, to observe where teachers, students, rather might be in a position that is really not very helpful. But at the same time to notice whether through observing the student through from the moment they enter the room, and to some degree, the way the student moves is to, to monitor is the student falling into, as Thomas Hanna might say, into a trauma response? Or are they following a physical patterning in the way they express the Asana know that you might have noticed when they're standing or moving? And those are the things I think to observe more and more in a yoga class and as the practice of adjustment becomes less and less appropriate? That's a whole other subject. But I think as you know, worldwide, people are becoming less and less of the mind that they wish to be manipulated wish to be even touched in some cases. And we need to guide more accurately both with the voice but also to therefore with the time that we might have in the past been more directed towards adjusting people to adjust more with the voice and to use your eyes and awareness more, with just noticing where we can give verbal cues, in the more subtle patterning that we start, and that takes experience, to notice physical threatening in the way people move. It's easy to see when they're walking, and how they're standing and less easy to see when they're in a semi contorted form. But you do learn with experience,
Hilary
What got me interested, a lot more interested in the like you've got these three workshops coming up and the training and in your description, it really caught my eye. I had to go look up the text, but it was about, you know, languaging for the different layers, I guess I can't remember the language you use. But I remember thinking of it as like teaching the teachers to think about how to reach people at different consciousness levels or, or maybe somatic levels. Am I remembering that right? Can you talk to that a little bit
Simon
Well, every individual comes into the room with a different body that looks different and different life experience, they hear differently. They receive differently, they translate differently, they interpret differently. And while of course, you have no control, and don't wish to have any control as to .... needs to find methodologies to try and sustain the wisdom and direction of what you're teaching. And keep people from going too far off-piste. While at the same time allowing them the space to experience because what is particularly in Yin yoga, what is inquiry. We want to more and more encourage inquiry to enable people to experience being in the moment. I mean, it's the immediate experience, as I use the terminology and what is our immediate experience? How can we consistently reside within the presence of our immediate experience and that is going to be physical, energetic, breath influenced, emotional. And then occasionally, within these moments of presence, in these deeper messages, percolate up into our into our spacious consciousness. And I think it's our role as a teacher to cultivate or trying to create a space of potential for individuals to experience. I like to call it the magic and mystery of yoga. That is not you know, this is not just a science, and it's certainly not an exact science. There is a magic and a mystery within yoga that bursts out of texts such as books, such as the Autobiography of a Yogi. And yet, we each if we allow the space for it, can experience it in our moment to moment life. And part of the creating space for the magic and mystery is not to intellectualise our yoga practice too much to just be...
Hilary
I have a word for it, I call it ordinary bliss, those moments, just as ordinary bliss, not extraordinary bliss. Lovely. It's truly the art of yoga and not just the sciences, exactly, a great way to say that. Do you have... I also want to say is that the other thing that've jumped out is, you know, you're really kind of taking this wisdom of the body. In this idea of the three brains, of course, we've been talking about this. Well, we've been hearing about this more often, but you're going to address that in the fall with us. That's a lovely way to get in touch and this idea that the belly and our gut and our heart and of course our mind, maybe you could just give me a little bit of your words on that and why you found that important...
Simon
Before I go there just wanted to say something we didn't touch on too much. In terms of the Yin practices I, as the teacher training reflects my my deepest influences on the anatomical aspects of the Yin practice have been sought from individuals who go inside of the body. Who literally spend hours days sometimes in some cases, weeks and months of their life in dissection, understanding the reality of what exists underneath our outer epidermis and every single layer from there inward. And there is, and from that, from that understanding which I wish to share and to share that I will be bringing one of the world's leading experts in this field of both dissection and the teaching and sharing of anatomy and physiology with a particular reference to the fascial being, that being Gary Carter. He's the creator of the first fully plasticized fascial body, which is now in display in Berlin, at Yoga worlds. And yeah, it's the first fully plastinated fascial body. And Gary created this along with the Gunther von Hagens' team is his knowledge where he Gary and I have worked together for over 20 years. And I incorporate a lot, I've studied and learned so much from him. And I would like to bring him with me on this training so that individuals can really get to know a little bit more about what goes on on the inside. There's a lot of theory about, lots of theory about the connective tissue and that and much of it is very true. But I think there's also, it can be a tendency in Yin yoga to over stretch ligaments and I'm very, very concerned about that element of it. But coming back to the workshop in September, I think the reason I was inspired to share the field of the three brains or theme of our three brains is again, where mankind is progressively been moving upwards from our instinctive belly brain up into the head brain, and kind of losing touch to heart brain now you could think of that metaphorically in all sorts of different levels. And, but I think also from literally a human being level this, this creature is wonderful evolution from the Bonobos, and other apes that we've evolved from is this incredible body that we need to understand how it's constructed, how it interfaces, or the multiple layers interface with each other. And recognising that our fascial body is the only complete, ubiquitous ever present aspect of our being. And as research progresses, we see more and more and more, how influential, how important, this fascial being that is ourselves is within our aliveness. And some, you know, we're still learning t's a relatively new field. And this is a field so important that we are receiving things like, now in consciousness, the Fascia is being explored on the deepest levels of consciousness at the same time as the most material and physical levels of function. And, I think it's truly fascinating, this field. So Gary is going to be joining me for a few days and I think that's in part two. We also explore in more depth, Thomas Hanna's teaching and the aspect of meditation as I've touched on before. Part 1, what I'd like to do in the Yin training is I'd flip back to September, three brain theme, back to the Yin training. I'd just like to, during the first day share a very wide range of practices that aren't, many of them you wouldn't find in the current Yin yoga books. Some you will but variations of them. I think I'd particularly enjoy sharing many of these Asanas because they really reflect the full breath of how I view, for the lack of a better word, Yin yoga, is wide, gentler, deeper, inner practice. And that, they will feature predominantly in part 1, along with other aspects that you've mentioned.
Hilary
Well I just remember back when you were teaching, you know, sometimes when we have teachers and we're influenced by everybody. But sometimes you take a workshop and you love it, and you think back years later, you can't actually remember what you actually learned but I mean I'm not going to go into details but I know you have influenced me. I can remember moments when you changed my world view, and I want to thank you for that. Things like, you know the triangle standing poses, the hips, and where are your shoulders and the way you move in circular form and I'd have to think a little longer. But I just know that there's a shift in ways that I look at things came through some of the ways you've brought your education through and I'm looking forward to see you again.
Simon
I'm looking forward to coming to Holland. I'm really fond of Holland, I've really good friends in Amsterdam and I've enjoyed my visit to Utrecht before. So this is the only European workshop I've chosen to come to. Since the beginning of the pandemic I feel more home bound, in this beautiful retreat here in Spain. If you've been here, you'd understand why I'm always reluctant to leave it. Yes so I'm looking forward to coming to Holland. And I hope that we have a happy quorum.
Hilary
Thank you for this time and sharing some of your insights into the practice and what's coming and we'll be talking again and I'll see you in the fall.
Simon
Very good to talk to you, and see you soon, no doubt. And everyone, I hope you have a good summer.
Hilary
Very nice, namaste, thank you.
Want to explore more?
Simon is coming to Yoga Moves for a series of three workshops: Embracing The Wisdom Of The Body from 30 September to 2 October. You can also join Simon for his accredited 100-hour Yin Yoga Teacher Training in November and December 2022.